The Identity Of The Son Of God - Appearances Not Deceptive.

-- Click To Expand/Collapse Bible Verses -- John ch8:v12-30
Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Joh 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
Joh 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. (KJV)

John, the author of this gospel again builds the evidence that Jesus is the Christ. Previously John had shown that Jesus' often incendiary statements on his divinity were backed up by his continuing miracles from God the Father - testifying that he was no blasphemer but the very Son of God Himself. Whilst previously Jesus was content to show only those nearby his Father's testimony, Jesus has far and beyond proved the fact of his authority as God, and finally puts his foot down and states that His own word is as good as God's own - for obvious reasons. This statement of Christ's, judged by his listeners as error in the face of all the past proof, is reconciled with Jesus' following remarks that they only judge by the outer appearance (the flesh v15). Jesus tells him that he makes no such judgement on appearance, but that he is able to judge truly (Since God searches the reins and hearts)

This verse 15 with "I judge no man" has been taken out of context many times by those seeking to spuriously claim the NT is full of contradictions. The effort is in often comparison to "For judgement I came into the world" elsewhere. - But this is also out of context! That one within a house shall be divided against another on the basis of faith or condemnation by rejection of Christ is a different subject.

Jesus reminds them that his Father performs his works of miracles through Christ still, and that by the law the testimony of two men is true, to point out that now they are the ones being irrational in the face of all the evidence.

Verse 21 starts a new thread that continues on through the rest of the chapter on the identity of the believer within the identity of Israel. Before Christ Israel were the chosen people of God, but there were conditions that the people should keep the law. So in truth Israel were those keeping the law within the physical nation of Israel. So, even then the spiritual thread required the healing in order for the true spiritually covenanted Israel to continue amidst the physical nation of Israel. - The "new" covenant is extended to include the gentiles also, since that which is needed to make a spiritually covenanted Israelite is not, and never has been a blood ancestry to Abraham or any other patriarch.

From verse 21 Jesus teaches the obstinate among the crowd (who are still trying to voice their doubt) that He is God. He doesn't mince words though they appear to misunderstand. He said "ye shall seek me" in reference that Jesus Christ is their God though they do not know it. They will worship in vain once he is resurrected if they keep the old ways. Jesus reiterates that the Father bears record of him as also he may bear record of himself that he is God. Jesus tells them that he must also be the object of their worship or they will die in their sins. Thus, the true identity of spiritual Israel is as the body of believers, followers or disciples of Jesus Christ.

The above scripture selection is amazingly clear - that Jesus is not some pawn of "christ-consciousness" or "overshadowing" as many occultists and new age witches and the like would attest. This tract shows undeniably from the statements of Christ himself that He is God, not a puppet or "just a good man and a great teacher." - John has organised his gospel account into a progressive text for the teaching of Jesus' person as the Christ.

Now here's the next section from John ch8.

-- Click To Expand/Collapse Bible Verses -- John ch8:v31-47
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (KJV)

My first impressions of reading through this chapter were that it was primarily a slanging match, I had missed all the important doctrine. I first came to this passage pretty much in mind that Jesus was the Son of God - mainly because of a cultural influence. Because of this, I missed the richness of the whole thing through the preceding chapters through this one. Missing the point that was being made - of a steady progression of evidence that Jesus is the Christ, I merely saw the argument rather than that which was being argued about.

Jesus by affirmation of the Father and his own words, even the technicality of the law had shown truthfully he was Christ. that the jews in opposition to him would not believe the plain truth before them, (They even called him a bastard) - They showed they had little else but contempt not just for the person of Jesus, but the truth that the one who sent him, the Father is their God. By rejecting Christ (and therefore their own God, the Father) they were the "sons of the devil", because they "preferred the lie" over Jesus and his words.

Jesus shows that they may well be the descendants of Abraham, but that they are not God's people. Jesus taught that the servants of sin (physical Israel) are not servants for ever because they die, but that the Son of God lives forever, and if he grants your freedom you will be free for ever. To be forgiven requires faith upon Jesus Christ, not the rejection of Him, and therefore God. Jesus was telling them the plain truth and they hated the truth more than the person of Christ. Yet because they hated the truth they simply could not understand it even put plainly.

The final verse (v47) above, clearly distinguishes between what is physical, sinful, unsaved and worldly, and who belongs within Israel proper. Spiritual Israel is the only Israel - truly God's people, physical Israel is no Israel at all. The difference is that if you love the truth and come to Christ you will be saved if you believe on him and the words of his Father that sent Him. Else, you are not saved at all.

Now, just finishing up the chapter - for your reference;

-- Click To Expand/Collapse Bible Verses -- John ch8:v48-59
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (KJV)

The Jews call Jesus a Samaritan - like calling Him completely ignorant of the "laws, commandments and the proper worship of God". By saying he has a devil they try to paint him as a deceiver capable of deceptive works and false signs. They really hate the truth here! Jesus had just called them sons of the devil - it is shocking to find them proving themselves such so quickly, even vehemently.

God seeks all men to honour Jesus, and will judge men according to this, but Jesus came to draw men to the Father as the Father draws men toward Christ for the same. Verse 54 shows Jesus finally spells it out as clearly as possible, that they reject their own God, not Jesus only. Jesus tells them he was around long before Abraham: - They held their blood ancestry as a yardstick of righteousness, Jesus plainly evidenced he was God - They could not believe he was around before his own birth, let alone Abraham's.

It was possible that Jesus was referring to the name change of Abram to Abraham; The whole start of the spiritual Israel over the physical began with the name changes: Jesus, perfect from birth beat him to it by 90 years or so. Abram, the choice as God's original spiritually whole "seed" on earth, became Abraham by Christ, as we also are born again today. ("I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.") That day for Abraham was the news of the conception of Isaac. - Certainly news for rejoicing.

Rather than consider Christ as a pattern of salvation, (In the case of Abram, Sarai and Jacob) not pre-existing his own birth; (More new age faulty crap). It merely shows that Jesus Christ was alive and even busy back then - and right back as far as "from everlasting".

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