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Cryptic; Any Connection With Anselm? - The Holy Trinity.

Barring the events of Jesus' betrayal, execution and his resurrection as evidence for His redemptive work, John's gospel goes into depth on precisely what is in store for the believer. Other than Jesus' words "If the world hates you remember that it first hated me." There are a whole load of (somewhat cryptic) verses on precisely how a believer of Christ is to be adopted into the family of God as an heir; a son of God themselves. References to "being one in me as I am one with you" or the suchlike are throughout the prayers of Christ to His Father.

John would not have included these words of Christ for our benefit unless they had meaning within the identity of Christ's body (Israel). So we have had ample evidence that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, Jesus is Holy, Jesus has all God's authority, Jesus was in the beginning with His Father, and that by Jesus and no other, are men saved. Thus, we know Jesus is the Christ. (because he said so.) However, John is not content with leaving us a historical account of his death and resurrection. We have had "who" and "how" but what of the intended outcome? That Jesus provides "something" we do not just posit upon His example, but with it we can assuredly place our trust in God's promises.

Here are the occurrences of these statements;

-- Click To Expand/Collapse Bible Verses -- John ch15:v1-8
Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

This selection has similar language to that of the main focus of this page (mostly John chapter 17). The comparison of Jesus with the vine is useful for recognising that we, his followers abide in him; his words, teachings and faith. What does seem harder to place is the other half of Jesus' statements, that of "and I in you". Importantly for the latter verses, that Jesus as the vine abides within it's branches. Jesus is the life within his followers, their focus, their reason d'être as it were. It is not just necessary for a fruitful vine to require the good branches to be part of the vine, but that the vine itself lives and is not dead. Paul teaches often on the "true gospel" - without a true gospel, then there is "another Jesus, of which we have not taught". - An important lesson, and one we can trace back to Christ's own teachings here.

Now on to chapter 17, when Jesus prays to his Father for his disciples;

-- Click To Expand/Collapse Bible Verses -- John ch17:v17-26
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it : that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

After reading the content of the metamath section on the trinity, I paid particular attention to this passage. I looked to see if their was any evidence within it for an Anselm like explanation of Christ's Israel as heirs to the kingdom of God: so I could explain the whole "seven churches" thing from revelation in terms alike to the trinity and the seven spirits of God. - I hoped to be able to somehow tie in the angels of the seven churches as well. However, after looking carefully, there is no evidence for this within this passage. God will not share his glory with another, so the mormon-like idea or even roman catholic like idea that the followers of Christ have godhood as an inheritance or that the established church has the authority of god to rewrite the commandments or gospel how we see fit is total bullshit.

However we make sense of the passage with the kingdom of God's axiom L(G) from the metaphysics section. Without the law, (as to setting it aside for the moment) Jesus would appear to be praying that if believer follows Christ with faith based on L(G) then God will reveal Himself to those believers and will grow their faith and knowledge of God accordingly in proper alignment with the interpretation of the law and prophets. Christ sets aside no special place in His requests for Jew over Gentile - any believer with the desire to seek God shall find Him - that is Christ's prayer.

Jesus was praying to his Father after he had taught all that he was instructed to by the Father. Jesus prayer that he sanctifies himself - That he has completed the task given him: (and done a bang up job). Jesus has completed his fathers teachings so that his followers would not be without, and be left with an incomplete gospel of the kingdom. This way, His followers may be sanctified. And also those whom they instruct likewise.

Verse 21: Here Jesus asks his Father that since the words and teachings of his father have been completed by him without and deviation, he and the Father in this sense are one. Jesus prays for His disciples to be one in Him likewise, but in this sense once removed, but without deviation from the Father's instruction through Christ. In the sense of the intended meaning of the word "catholic" This is also an essence of Jesus' prayer.

The glory referred to in verse 22, could be a reference to the Holy Spirit. More likely the crowds followed Jesus and were amazed by His teaching because he taught "as one with authority". The glory given to Jesus as the Christ, the long awaited saviour of Israel, lay not in the presence of Jesus or his status as king foremost, but by the words given to him by his father to speak. Jesus himself echoed this when he said "Luk 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

Likewise, Jesus gave the greatest wealth he had - his Fathers words to be left in his disciple's trust. He also gave his disciples the ability to call on Jesus' name to perform miracles. This was not so much trusted to them as the ability to teach rightly. It is a great deal easier to lie than it is to perform miracles in Jesus' name and claim you did it yourself!

The glory of passing on the truth of the gospel is given to his disciples - in trust, that through their teachings Jesus asks his Father to make his words true, no matter how many times that trust is passed on. It has to be 'perfect in one' (v23). If this happens, and continues to happen, then when Jesus' words are kept truthfully - From no deviation can there be the claim that Christianity is bogus and full of variance - a mere collection of traditions. L(G) must be communicated.

In verse 24, as Jesus himself had perfect knowledge of his Father's words, the gospel and all knowledge of the scriptures and the words of eternal life, it is his desire for his Father to answer his request to bring all His disciples into a similar understanding. We are in the similar position of knowing we are the sons of God. Notwithstanding, by this we surely acknowledge Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God, the firstborn of the resurrection and our saviour. Then, from L(G) we infer that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word breathed from the mouth of God.

The last verse given here sews this passage up neatly. Jesus' prayer follows with his assurance that His followers will know the love of their Father God, but as through Christ is their inheritance, It is His Father alone through which they have it.


Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


A note on Jesus word's whilst praying before he was arrested. From Matthew's gospel but as a last thing;

-- Click To Expand/Collapse Bible Verses -- Matt ch26:v39-42
Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

I like this passage because it repudiates the need for the roman catholic mass. Jesus is not asking his Father for an escape ticket, as perhaps the muslims teach - that he escaped being crucified. He was praying that the suffering he was to go through would be final. He knew that the church for most of it's existence would teach that every Sunday Christ's death is re-enacted, but taught as if the wine and bread become the 100% real and genuine blood and body of Christ. Thus, his death would be as it is today, protracted over nearly 2000 years every week until now. The second time Jesus prayed, it was with acknowledgement that the whole sacrifice would be accomplished all in one go as Jesus drank the whole cup.


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